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September 14, 2005

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Eric Thomson

I think one aspect of the significance of 'ought' is that statements such as "You should not murder babies" do not have a fact-stating role in the sense that "There is a cup on the table" does. I think that, psychologically speaking, the former has implications that the other does not have: I am committed to creating a world in which babies are not murdered, and this even includes trying to convince other people to share this committment.

Even if the above is wrong in specifics, perhaps we should be looking to the inferences licensed by ought claims rather than staring at individual ought claims and trying to divine their meaning. Clearly they have meaning, and on the surface it is different from that of factual claims (though it may be bull: it may be no more large a semantic gap than that between facts about lungs and facts about tornadoes).

Rather than 'truth conditions', Sellars spoke of 'satisfaction conditions' of ought claims: what would the world look like if these ethical committments were implemented?

Joseph Biehl

In what sense do ought claims "clearly have meaning"? How can a term/claim clearly have a meaning that no one can articulate?

You suggest that (presumably) in believing that we should not murder babies that we are "committed" to creating a world in which babies are not murdered. How/in what sense are we committed? Is it psychologically impossible to believe this while not caring about whether a world of never-murdered babies obtains? If not this, then what? Is the committment one of expectation? And why must such a comittment, whatever it is, include trying to convince others to be so committed? Is it necessarily the case that whenever someone believes that x 'ought' to obtain they are committed (required?) to convince others of this?

I'm not sure I understand the point about satisfaction condtions. As far as I understand ought claims, they are, primarily, expressions of preference (at varying degrees of remove). So, in the case at hand, the satisfaction conditions of "you should not murder babies" is a world where no babies are murdered. Am I mistaken about this? What if you think that ought claims are not expressions of preference, but something else. Would the satisfaction conditions be different? And what of someone who doesn't care about whether babies are murdered, and feels no inclination to utter our claim. Has he made some kind of mistake? Is there a problem with not being committed to a world of unmurdered babies? If so, what? If he wants to murder a baby, wouldn't his state of mind find satisfaction in a world of (at least one) murdered baby (by him)? Is there something 'wrong' with that satisfaction condition?

A final point for now. Thinking that asserting such ought claims "licenses certain inferences" seems to presume that one makes such judgments and that there are requirements of some kind on subsequent judgments. This seems like a normative claim. So the questions simply begin again: what kind of requirement? A psychological one? Some other? Moreover, it suggests that the 'judgment' is about something. Another way of thinking of it would be that the claim is merely a formulation or expression of how we intend to engage the world, and the 'licensed inferences' are merely the expected, further states of mind one is likely to be in who actively engages the world in that way.

Eric Thomson

--In what sense do ought claims "clearly have meaning"? How can a term/claim clearly have a meaning that no one can articulate?--

I was using common sense, aiming to avoid positivisic excommunications of complicated concepts because they do not satisfy some preselected criterion for meaningfulness. If there is a sense in which ought claims do not have meaning, then that sense of meaning is wrong. I am not ARGUING for that, but it is an assumption that seems so reasonable I am willing to take it as a premise. However, I realize that is partly what you are arguing about, so below I wave at a more positive answer.

If you were an anthropologist who had to translate ethical claims from an African language to English, would you refuse, or would you try to find synonyms? If so, what would synonymy be sameness of, if not meaning? If you would not bother to try to find synonyms because of some philosophy of language, you would be a crappy anthropologist.

Note I largely agree that moral realism has to be false, if that implies that morality does not depend on the particular features of our biology/culture/etc. I am arguing now within a non-realist framework.

The intension of an ethical claim most likely depends on psychological and anthropological facts. It seems that most ought claims are subsumed by a larger-scale goal. These core goals/desires/aims are learned very early in life, and form a central nodes in webs of inferences about how to act. These goals act to organize reasons in arguments about what to do (as opposed to how the world is). Certain goal-states are like the assumption that there is an external world: hard or impossible to prove or justify, but figure in so many inferences, are so dammned useful in society that they will be very hard to eliminate.

At any rate, I think your general anti-realist point is a good one, but this does not mean that ought claims are meaningless. It just implies that we are in the awkward position of giving an account of the moral reasoning of the Hitler Youth. We have no culture- and biology- free fulcrum from which to criticise their web of moral reasoning. This doesn't seem a big practical problem, though.

I don't think this mild nonrealism is any more bad than our inability to give an account of Humor without reference to human psychology.

Joseph Biehl

Eric,

First, sorry for the delay; I've been away for the last 6 days on a last sojourn before term starts.

I think we agree on most things here, the trouble--if we can call it that--stems from a lack of clarity on my part. When I say that ought claims, etc, have no meaning, I do not intend to say that they have no meaning whatsoever; that, indeed, would be ridiculous. I think they have meanings, but ones that can be exhaustively expressed in 'the naturalistic idiom' as you put it. My claim of lack of meaning is directed towards those--non-naturalists--who would claim that no such naturalistic explication could be exhaustive; those, that is, who would claim irreducible 'normative significance' for such claims.

Perhaps the upshot of the position I am taking that I am most concerned to push at present fits nicely with your comment that such ought claims are "hard or impossible to justify". If, as I am maintaining, there is no 'normative semantic remainder', then such ought claims--claims about what to do, as you put them--are 'impossible' to justify BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JUSTIFICATION (sorry to be screaming, but this, to me, is precisely what needs screaming from the roof tops, to many 'anti-realists' anyway. I tend to think that certain realists, non-naturalists like Reid,Moore, and Prichard, are the ones that REALLY get this). That there is no such thing as justification, just prediction and explanation, is what the insistent naturalist position ultimately amounts to, and why I have resorted to using the rather dramatic 'normative nihilism' as an alternative label for it.

Your claim that our inability to provide an objective standpoint for criticism of anothers' reasoning (moral or otherwise)--which is, of course, the manifestation of normative nihilism--is not a practical problem, is one with which I completely concur. We don't need such a position to reject or criticise another's thinking or behavior; we need only not accept it.

Thanks for pressing me to be clearer.

Morgan

Thanks for the read. I agree with the points you made. http://www.rapidmediafire.com also has peoples thoughts on the matter.

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